Battery ecosystems for gigafactories – The Battery Podcast S01E08 – Transcript
In this episode of the Battery Podcast (S01E08) we pulled a great conversation from Hannover Messe 2024 with guests from PowerCo, Jagenberg, and RWTH Achen University in addition to a Siemens expert. Enjoy the discussion!
Nick Finberg
Welcome to the Battery Podcast from Siemens Digital Industries. This is the place to find interesting conversations around the battery industry with voices of experts and important players in the business. To that end, today’s episode is a little different, this recording out of Hannover Messe was moderated by Chris Brow with a great panel of guests – Sebastian Wolf the COO of PowerCo, Dr. Stephan Witt COO of Jagenberg, Dr. Heiner Heimes a member of Institute Management at RWTH Aachen University, and Michael Thomas Senior VP of Factory Automation at Siemens. Enjoy!
Chris Brow
Great to have you, gentlemen.
Sebastian Wolf
Hi, nice to have you.
Chris Brow
Welcome, everybody. Welcome, everybody. Wow. All right. So fully charged, gentlemen.
Chris Brow
I hope so. When we’re talking about batteries. So great to have you with us. Just real briefly, maybe we can start off with you and then go through the panel here. Just tell us briefly what you actually do.
Sebastian Wolf
All right. So while I’m responsible in PowerCo, I don’t know whether everybody knows PowerCo.
Chris Brow
PowerCo? Ever heard of it?
Sebastian Wolf
Who knows PowerCo?
Chris Brow
Yep, yep, yep, yep.
Sebastian Wolf
OK, not enough hands yet. So we’re actually the subsidiary of Volkswagen Group, which is building all the cell factories. As of now, we communicated we’re building six factories around Europe and the world with around 240 gigawatt hours. And my personal responsibility is to plan, build up, and also run all the cell factories of the Volkswagen Group under PowerCo.
Chris Brow
All right, thank you very much for that. Dr. Stephan Witt?
Dr. Stephan Witt
Yeah, thank you very much. So maybe we are not that famous as Volkswagen, but we are machine builders with 1,300 employees worldwide. And we are focused on roll-to-roll machinery. And that’s what we are doing for more than 160 years now.
Chris Brow
Look at that. Success with history. How about you?
Dr. Heiner Heimes
Yeah, I’m Heiner. I’m professor at Aachen University. And my research focus is about the production processes of lithium ion batteries. And for this, I do a lot of teaching work together with young students and try to make them fit for the battery industry.
Chris Brow
Thank you very much. And?
Michael Thomas
Michael Thomas. I’m in Siemens in charge of the automation of machinery, like the Jagenberg machine you see here. And my heart beats globally for making machines more productive, more speedy, more connected.
Chris Brow
So gentlemen, let’s jump right into it, since we only have a limited time frame here. Maybe we start off with you, Sebastian. What is the current roadmap of PowerCo? Maybe you could tell us what are the biggest challenges in building but also commissioning gigafactories. I know that’s Gita or that’s Giga, as we call it.
Sebastian Wolf
Yes, that’s Giga.
Chris Brow
Then you opened or started–
Sebastian Wolf
Valencia.
Chris Brow
Valencia, right? Tell us a bit about what the challenges are.
Sebastian Wolf
Well, I mean, first of all, we’re currently setting up three factories at the same time right now as of now. I mean, we’re currently in the process of selecting the next site. First site is El Skita with an SOP in 2025. Second one will be Valencia in Spain. And the third one we just announced a month ago will be in St. Thomas in Canada, which is the first site outside of Europe. Well, what are the challenges? Well, first of all, it’s really getting the number of people you need, really getting the qualification, because obviously we don’t have an established battery ecosystem such as in Asia right now. So really getting the right people at the right pace, the right qualification is really a big challenge. Second one for sure is getting the equipment up and running. I think we see some of our competitors here in Europe, they do challenge. They do have challenges here in ramping up the factory. So I think we need good and reliable partners for setting up also the equipment. Yeah, and for sure, it’s in ramping up as fast as we possibly can, because as you all know, the future is electric. And I think also the Volkswagen Group dedicated to really going all electric, so we need the batteries. And yeah, that’s basically the major challenges from outside.
Chris Brow
What would you say when we talk about batteries from a science and research perspective? Are there any new trends that need to be considered in the future of battery industry?
Dr. Heiner Heimes
Yeah, I guess first of all, from a university perspective, it’s very important to point out that we have a strong development of the production of our lithium ion batteries. And this creates an ecosystem around it. And so we have companies about recycling, the remanufacturing companies, companies for module and pack assembly and so on. And this is a great ecosystem, which is around the battery cell production itself. And in each of these topics, there are different trends. For example, there is a trend of doing a substitution from the NMC material to an LFP material. Or if we talk about all solid state batteries, this might be a game changer, which will come up in the next years.
Chris Brow
Interesting. And from a, let’s say, from a machine builder’s perspective, how do you see the role of strategic partnerships? As Sebastian just mentioned, also one of the biggest challenges finding the right partners, how do you see that?
Dr. Stephan Witt
Well, I think you see here on the booth that there are quite a lot of companies which are involved in such an ecosystem. And from my point of view, that’s quite an important part to be successful here in Europe. For sure, we are a little bit behind Asia regarding the development. But looking back to the history, I think, for example, to the machine tool industry, there is always a strong, well, there was always a strong partnership between industry, research, and the end user. And I think if we consider this, this could be a solution for the existing problems to ramp up such factories. And finding a combined standard where the machine manufacturer are able to modulize the machines to make use of the economy of scale. And then in the final end, this will help to ramp up such a factory more efficient than it is today.
Dr. Heiner Heimes
But, I think, maybe I’m allowed to add.
Chris Brow
Please.
Dr. Heiner Heimes
We are monitoring the industry in a very close way. And we found out that we have a very strong market for equipment suppliers which are able to produce their equipment for battery cell production directly in Europe. And this could enable a lot of things. And I guess we can be very happy and very proud that we have this strong market for equipment suppliers directly located in Europe.
Chris Brow
Good to know, but I guess something not everybody is aware of.
Dr. Heiner Heimes
Yeah.
Chris Brow
Right?
Dr. Heiner Heimes
Yeah, you’re right.
Chris Brow
Right.
Dr. Heiner Heimes
Yeah.
Chris Brow
Maybe looking at you, Thomas, maybe you can tell us how Siemens can best possibly support in the area of standardization.
Michael Thomas
First of all, from my point of view, for Siemens, we see the battery as a race. It’s a race in multiple dimensions, starting at the design of the battery itself, where there’s a lot of innovation going on, and where we also support in simulating and designing the battery itself. Number two is taking that design into making highly productive machinery, precision machinery equipment, to produce this battery along the value chain, as you see it over here. Number three is then scaling up factories, where you can produce gigawatts of battery capacity, and doing this in a very, very short period of time to win the race. And number four is then over the lifecycle of the battery, taking the data from the car where the battery is included, connecting it to the design and production data, and then innovating and analyzing this data to improve the design further. That is how we see, and that is also the way how we want to work together with machine builders, with partners in this ecosystem to speed up the technology. And very, very important is that at the end of the day, with customers like Jarenberg, we want to build machinery where we define the technology today, but we want to continuously update this technology over the years of time.
Chris Brow
And if I’m informed correctly, right away, but your machines are, I think, on display here also, right?
Michael Thomas
Yes.
Chris Brow
In the digital enterprise, just so you know, just in case you haven’t heard, I think you mentioned that before, but just saying it again, feel free to approach Stefan and his team, obviously, after the talk here.
Michael Thomas
Thank you for the advertisement.
Chris Brow
Yeah, sure, that’s what we’re here for, too.
Sebastian Wolf
Well, I would like to add something. You asked what are the challenges, right? And what are the challenges in building up competitive cell factories? Well, the question is how to build up not only cell factories, but competitive battery cell manufacturing and battery cell companies in Europe.
Chris Brow
What does competitive mean in this?
Sebastian Wolf
Yeah, exactly. That’s, I think, something we need to understand. Well, first of all, we have, I think, quite a good know-how of R&D research for battery cells in Europe, right? We invested in the last 10, 15, 20 years, quite a lot of experience and also money in really developing new cell technologies, such as, I don’t know, high-nickel material, maybe even also, let’s say, battery approaches, but really what is lacking. And that’s why I think it’s really important that we put effort on it right now. It’s really in-depth development of advanced manufacturing technologies, right? Because especially for companies like us, we need to compete against established players, right? So really, what’s important for that is that we are cost-competitive in terms of capex, right? Because we ultimately know we are on a higher cost basis than Asia, not only us, also the friends in North America. So we can only compete if we really do something which is innovative. And that’s why I think the key challenge is that we don’t only establish a supply base, but really we have a technology roadmap with production equipment, which will enable us to be also competitive in terms of capex, but also opex, meaning operational costs, which for sure, given the circumstance we are here in Europe with all these energy prices, is quite a challenge for an energy-intensive business such as battery manufacturing.
Chris Brow
So, no, go for it.
Dr. Stephan Witt
Maybe one thing to add. I think this challenge is that big, that you are not able to solve that issue on your own. So you need partners, and this has to be an open discussion on eye level. And I think this is the most important point, that we establish an ecosystem and we don’t have to think in silos because in nature an ecosystem is not consisting of silos.
Chris Brow
Right, right. And that’s what this basically also shows. If you take a look at, once again, the screen here, this is the ecosystem. This is what it means. The interplay, once again, working together, having the right partners, and creating the ecosystem that you’re talking about. Yeah. Go for it.
Dr. Heiner Heimes
Chris, I would like to confirm. To my mind, Sebastian is absolutely right. We have to focus on the production processes, and therefore I’m very happy that we get a lot of support from our government, from the ministries, from the national government, from the local government, and they support a lot of research projects where we can focus on the production technologies, where we can, for example, try to make the drying process of the electrodes better, where we can try to reduce the energy consumption and something like this. And we get a lot of support and we use this support not only to do research, also to do education, because it’s very important that these companies get well-educated young persons which are able to work there and make sure that the things go in the right way.
Chris Brow
I guess also one of the bigger challenges in the industry, finding skilled workforce. We’ve heard that many times here today throughout many of the different sessions. And when we talk about competitiveness, I guess sustainability also plays a huge role. And if we look at the ecosystem in total, is that one of the biggest challenges? Like if you talk about your green battery, what does it look like? What are the requirements to actually prove sustainability in a production environment?
Sebastian Wolf
Well, I think first of all, you need to understand where your emissions are coming from. So a battery-sys factory itself doesn’t really have a lot of emissions. So we don’t burn something. It’s actually quite a silent production if you want. But as I said, we’re quite an energy-intensive environment. So we consume quite a lot of energy in terms of electricity. And then for sure, one of the key features to be green, and I think we invest a lot of time and effort in really making sure that the energy we are consuming is renewable. So we are really going for 100% sustainable energy supply, which for sure is one of the major factors of everybody saying a battery has such a huge CO2 bag, right? Everybody’s talking about that. But we can actually actively steer that. For example, in our Spain project, we are actually supplying 30% of the energy we consume in the factory by ourselves. So we basically, next to our facility, we have our own PV park, where we basically generate one third of our energy consumption by ourselves.
Chris Brow
Well, that works in Spain.
Sebastian Wolf
That works in Spain, but actually there are similar projects in Germany as well right now. I mean, I always take the fact that in Germany, at least in North Germany, we have 600 sun hours per year. In Spain, we have 1,400. So obviously PV might not be a good choice in northern Germany, but therefore we have PV, right? There are other sources. And I think you can even today, even in Germany, enable a renewable based battery electricity supply. You just need to have the right strategy. And also there you need to have the right know-how and partners. And that’s why I think it’s really important to find the right people to tell you, well, how do I get ultimately to a really CO2 free or at least CO2 neutral supply of your electricity?
Chris Brow
Wow. Sounds very ambitious.
Sebastian Wolf
It becomes reality actually.
Chris Brow
Yeah, but also considering the current challenges that are going on around the world, I mean, from every corner, basically. Definitely not an easy task, but must be done somehow. How can the supplier, how can Siemens, how is Siemens actually contributing to this? Looking at the Siemens accelerator program, for example, or industrial operations x, are these also answers that help?
Michael Thomas
There are a lot of technologies to first of all, optimize the carbon footprint in the production. Also to create the transparency in the production, like SiGreen we have here on the fair as well. And I think at the end of the lifetime of the battery, we talk about recycling. That’s also something where there’s a lot of research and innovation going on. And for sure, sustainability is most probably in terms of battery and consumer, the most important aspect, which is all driving us. When we drive an electrical car. And therefore, I think competition in the race of battery will be definitely sustainability, one of the key factors. And the other topics we discussed that we say there are other players which have a quite long experience in building batteries. Utilizing all the technology, not having a big history, is a huge opportunity to think the entire process of battery. Totally different in a strong partnership with competent partners. And I think that makes me very optimistic that also in Europe we will be able to make battery lines like you see here on the booths as a model.
Chris Brow
So it is learning about from learning from each other also.
Dr. Stephan Witt
Maybe one comment or let’s say a wish. We heard many times it’s a race. So it’s crucial to be fast and be fast in development. And I fully appreciate what the German government and the European Commission is doing for the ecosystem here in Europe. But we are not fast enough. So it takes that long if such a project is started. So I think this is something we should keep in mind that we have to be fast.
Chris Brow
Well, German bureaucracy, right? At some point.
Dr. Stephan Witt
Yes, it is.
Chris Brow
I think it is a factor probably.
Dr. Stephan Witt
Yeah, it’s really a problem for the industry.
Sebastian Wolf
But I think it now decides which role Europe will play. And I think it’s important for everybody to understand it’s not a race about when. It’s a race about whether or not. So we need to understand that we now need speed from all the sides. Right. And there’s no way to lay back and say just like in combustion technology, well, we either way manage it. That’s not the truth anymore. In e-mobility, the race was started somewhere else. And now it’s on us to catch up. Right. And I think that’s very important for everybody to understand. And I think this is a great comment. We really need to get to speed in all aspects of the industry.
Dr. Heiner Heimes
Just let me underline this fact, because it’s very important to know that we have Asian companies which come to Europe to produce lithium ion battery cells directly in Europe. And not only the cell manufacturers, also equipment suppliers, which are located in the Asian market, now come to Europe and set up their production facilities directly here. And this could be a risk from a European point of perspective. And therefore, I totally agree with Sebastian. We have to be fast. Yeah.
Chris Brow
Good point.
Dr. Heiner Heimes
But taking all the challenges and heavy load on the shoulders, what I have to say is that machine building and manufacturing was never more exciting than today. And I hope also you talked about the shortage of qualified people, that more and more people coming here to Hanover are feeling in the same way and that we attract a lot of young talents all over Europe to work with on this challenge. And we are going to make it by combining experienced people from the different domains with young talented people which have the right skills and all the power to drive the technology.
Chris Brow
And I guess besides a classical apprenticeship, as you would do in Germany, I guess the RWTH Aachen is also a great place to start off.
Dr. Heiner Heimes
Yeah.
Chris Brow
How do you transfer that knowledge basically from research, from an academic level to industry?
Dr. Heiner Heimes
Yeah. Therefore, you have to know if we do a research project, there are PhD students, there are master students, bachelor students. They all work in this research project. And normally after they graduated, they move into the industry and for sure they bring their knowledge, the things they learned at the university directly into the industry. And that’s how the transfer from the university to the industry works.
Chris Brow
Looking at the time, gentlemen, this has gone way more quickly than I expected. Maybe just one closing sentence statement from each of you. What would be your wish once again, if we meet again here in, let’s say, 2025? What will we be talking about?
Sebastian Wolf
Well, I wish we’re in mass production with Fully Loaded. And I wish that we have and maybe also here a lot of new talents being recruited. So everybody’s interested in PowerCo. Now you know. And for sure, we’re searching for a lot of talented people. You’re very welcome to look at what we offer.
Chris Brow
PowerCo, now you know. How about Jagenberg?
Dr. Stephan Witt
Yeah, as I mentioned before, I’m convinced that the German industry or European industry is able to supply this. And I would like to wish in 2025 that I would say to you, I was right.
Chris Brow
All right. How about you?
Dr. Heiner Heimes
I would wish me that we would have a strong European battery industry with a lot of perspectives for my students and a lot of opportunities where these young students could go into.
Chris Brow
From RWTH Aachen. And last but not least, from Siemens.
Michael Thomas
I would wish that we have a much bigger circle of competent partners working together with us in the technology of batteries, developing this ecosystem, and that we have the first factories in Europe with the technology we can continuously improve and upgrade for the future.
Chris Brow
Despite the challenges, I’d say an optimistic outlook when we take a look at the battery production of the future, at least with the help of Siemens and partners like we have here on stage today. Let’s give him a big round of applause, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you. It’s been a pleasure. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Thank you. And enjoy the rest of the fair. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you.
Nick Finberg
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Battery Podcast. Make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss our future episode. And until then you might want to check out our previous conversations or go to our website siemen.com/battery for more information.
